[SOLVED] Using modulation wheel to toggle rotary fast/slow problem

[Seamaster]

Hi all.

When I first got my E-80, I had the modulation wheel set up to toggle between rotary fast and slow effect on the harmonic bars, à la the old half-moon switch on the early Hammonds. This worked great - a quick flick up to speed up, another to slow down, and vice versa.

Now, all of a sudden, no matter how correctly set up this appears to be, the toggle only works ONCE, and then not again, until I restart my E-80. That is to say, I tap it the first time to go from slow to fast, which works, but then subsequently the wheel does nothing.

I have tried everything, even a factory reset, and I cannot get this functionality back. What gives?

PS: Setting the rotary fast/slow option to the D-beam, to the programmable 1 & 2 switches or to my FC-7 works fine, so I have plenty of workarounds. But tapping that wheel just felt so natural, I really miss it.

[rshotbolt]

Just checked that this works properly on my G-70 - and it does, with both upper and lower HB. Maybe Hanspeter could try it.

Cheers
Richard

[Ironhill]

Hi Seamaster,
the modulation lever works fine one my E-80. I can switch the rotary speed for the harmonic bar and the organ sounds (when the MFX uses a rotary algorithm). Are you shure that the setting is 'ON' like at picture below? This is memorized in an User program (UPG) and the HB registration.
Regards
Hanspeter     

[Seamaster]

Hans, yes I do.

My set-up is as follows: I have HB on UP1. MFX is on, and set to rotary. I can toggle the fast/slow when assigned to D-beam, FC-7 or ASSIGN SW 1/2. But no matter how I configure the Modulation wheel in HAND CONTROLLERS (ON/AUTO), it doesn't work (neither does pitch-bend - although this does work on whatever I have on UP2 and UP3, do I know the wheel itself is physically working).

[Ironhill]

Hi Seamaster,
the MFX is irrelevant to the HB, it's important only for the Organs in the TONE section. The rotary speed doesn't change if the ROTARY SOUND switch is 'OFF' in the HB EFFECT display. (light brown), although the yellow/red indicator changes.  In all other cases, independent of HAND CONTROLLERS settings too, it works on my E80. Sorry, that's all I can say about.
Regards
Hanspeter   

[Seamaster]

Well, I'm stumped. 

[Diki]

First of all, could you check whether your modulation lever works correctly for regular sounds... Apply the lever to a regular sound and you should hear a vibrato (check that it IS assigned to it).

Does it work normally?

[Seamaster]

Yes, works fine on on non-HB sounds, both for pitch bend and modulation. 

[Diki]

OK, next thing...

You say you've been applying the MFX for Rotary to the Part that the HB sound is on (even though it doesn't need it)?

Try creating a UPG where you HAVEN'T got this, and see if the lever now works as expected...

[Seamaster]

Tried that too.

The weirdness of this, is that the toggle works . . . once. As I described in my first post, I can push once, to go from slow to fast (and, if I also have ASSIGN SW1 set to HB fast/slow, I see it illuminate), but it will not work again until I switch the keyboard off and on again. 

[Ironhill]

(and, if I also have ASSIGN SW1 set to HB fast/slow, I see it illuminate), but it will not work again until I switch the keyboard off and on again. 

That's Ok because the ASSIGN SW settings are not Global parameters. These settings must be memorized in an User Program. You can recall this UPG if you switch on the keyboard again. See MENU >> UTILITY >> STARTUP >> USER PROGRAM RECALL or, of course when you select it yourselves.
Regards
Hanspeter   

[Diki]

Have you got the E80 hooked to a computer while you do this? Does it do it all by itself, or are you perhaps running some kind of MIDI loop?

The Assign SW not working once you have toggled by the lever once is a telling point. This definitely takes it from the realm of a hardware problem into software, I would think. But it works OK with the FC-7, you say?

Tell us about how you did the upgrade from OS1 to 2... Did you do it, did a store, did you buy it with OS 2 already on it?

I think, if you exhaust any help from Roland directly (you HAVE contacted RolandUK's main G70 support staff, haven't you?), perhaps re-installing OS 2.1, or even going to the OS 2.02 that Hanspeter has might at least track it down to a hardware issue or not. What do RolandUK say?

[Seamaster]

No, my E-80 is never hooked up to  a computer.

The ASSIGN SW switch doescontinues to work, as does the D-Beam, as does the FC7. In fact I can assign the fast/slow switch to anything, and it works - apart from the damned modulation wheel, which only works once, as described, and then not again. It's bizarre.

The upgrade from v1 to v2 I did myself, with the CD-ROM and instructions supplied by Roland.

[Diki]

You say you like to 'flick' the lever to get the Leslie change... Does the situation change if you take the lever and PUSH it all the way to the top?

Maybe Roland changed the point at which it triggers?

And I ask again... What have Roland said? After all, they designed it. Surely they should be the FIRST people you ask in the event of a malfunction..?

Hanspeter has already said that HIS V2 E80 doesn't have this problem. This seems to indicate that either your OS install went wrong, or you have a hardware problem. Both situations warrant a call to Roland tech support, IMO...

[Ironhill]

Hanspeter has already said that HIS V2 E80 doesn't have this problem. This seems to indicate that either your OS install went wrong, or you have a hardware problem. Both situations warrant a call to Roland tech support, IMO...

Checking the V2.01 brought the same results as my current V2.02! The only possibility that the speed will not change is the HB Effect 'ROTARY SOUND' is set to 'off'. This can also happen if the ASSGN SW is set to 'Rotary HB On/Off' instead of 'Rotary HB Slow/Fast' and the switch doesn't light.
Regards
Hanspeter     

[Seamaster]

But the speed does change! It only changes once though!

It's a weird one all right.

I tried a reinstall of 2.01 today, to no avail.

I'll give Roland a buzz when I have time, see what they make of it.

[FrankJohnston]

Hi folks,
I have the identical problem. The lever works once, but then nothing. If I keep rocking the lever in all directions, maybe for 20 seconds or more, it will change speed. Not too good! Pushing it in a forward direction only 20 times doen not help - it seems to trigger something if I operate randomly in all directions.
I do not like to use the D-beam much because it reacts when I turn a page. This just leaves the option of the touch screen (Harmonic Bar Effects) It works perfectly.
I am on version 2 now, but I had this problem on 1.06.
I had assumed that the rocker must be mechanically damaged, but why does it work once?
However, I am not about have it checked. I could not part with my E-80.
Frank

[Seamaster]

Your wheel is not "mechanically damaged", as you will note that pitch bend and modulation work absolutely perfectly on all non-HB sounds.

Thank God it's not just me though!!

[Diki]

Now it gets interesting...

OK, try this... where exactly did you ALL download your OS2 install from? Or you got it off a CD? Any chance of doing a checksum comparison between the 'working' install and the 'non-working'?

Perhaps there's a glitch on a batch or local country's issue of OS2 disks?

How about a bender calibration routine that might pick up a problem?

I'm sorry, but at this point, with some of you having the problem, and some of you NOT, this is something I think you WILL have to take up with your local Roland support. Without universality, it's hard to write off as a bug, unless some bad batch of disks got out there. I'd at least try to get a different install disk, to see if that fixes it. And what was your upgrade path to OS2? Maybe something in the order they are applied. I've seen stranger things... 

Tough, hard to pin down things like this are the bane of a bug-base. Without consensus, it's tough to make them bring out a quick hotfix. Keep at it... perhaps there's SOMETHING in common with those that have the problem vs. those that don't. I encourage you all to post this issue on other sites where E80 users may be. If enough of you correspond, we might be able to track the issue down...

Good luck 

[rshotbolt]

I think I know what the problem is. On my G-70, the rotary fast/slow triggers with even the slightest forward movement of the paddle. I suspect in your case the potentiometer controlled by the paddle needs counter-rotating slightly so that it needs pushing forward a shade more before it triggers, so that it can drop back a shade past that point when you let go. If you know what 'hysteresis' means you will undertand what I'm saying. I'm not sure whether this is something you could do yourself - if it's under warranty I would take it to the shop.

This OUGHT to be possible in software as well - and i have that 'deja vu' feeling that I've seen a calibration procedure somewhere.

Cheers
Richard

[Diki]

I thought he said that the lever works as expected for regular vibrato and the like, though, Richard.

One would have thought that if it is buggered up for the HB triggering, it would be buggered up for other uses, too... (pardon my French! )

We haven't had ANY (if I remember rightly) reports of erratic bend lever behavior in the past for other functions.

But let's at least eliminate this as a possibility...

Seamaster, would you start your Recorder (or the 16 Track sequencer) and move the lever up and back down. In fact flick it once like you prefer, then MOVE it up and down more completely. Now go to the Micro edit mode, and take a look at the values it generated. It SHOULD start at 0, and go to 127 with the push, and return to 0 at rest. The flick might not go as high, but should still return to 0.

What are your results?

[rshotbolt]

Diki, the threshold for the rotary fast/slow is FAR below that necessary to produce a modulation effect, so that will not be affected. The problem is entirely due to the rotary fast/slow threshold being MUCH too close to the end stop on some instruments (it's ALMOST too close on mine). Physically turning the pot, or re-calibrating in software would fix it.

The hysteresis effect ensures that the fast/slow can't sit on a knife edge and oscillate. You have to move the lever forward past a threshold in order to trigger one change, then the lever must return back past that point a short distance before the effect can be triggered again. On Seamaster's machine this is physically impossible because the lever will not move back past the lower threshold.

There IS a calibration procedure - I remember it coming up when I installed OS3.0, but I can't find how to re-enable it. I bet there's a key combination when you switch on - anyone know it?

Richard

[Ironhill]

There IS a calibration procedure for this - I remember it coming up when I installed OS3.01, but I can't find how to re-enable it. I bet there's a key combination when you switch on - anyone know it?

Yes, calibrating the G-70 modulation lever is easy to do, see tips & tricks. But unfortunately this doesn't work on the E80. The information I got is that there is a technical routine initiated with style variation switches 1 & 4 holding during power on. But without the describtion of the whole routine it's nearly impossible to calibrate the lever. A phone to 'Roland Services' will be better than speculate further things.
Regards
Hanspeter         

[rshotbolt]

I agree Hanspeter, you shouldn't try and find the key combination by trial-and-error, as you might inadvertantly erase an internal ROM or something equally catastrophic.

Richard

[FrankJohnston]

The theory about pot. setting seems credible. In my case, I had an accident where the keyboard had quite a jolt. At the time I did not detect any damage, but perhaps the pot. moved slightly.
It does not lappear to be very accessible!
Frank