Does Roland think we can all afford roadies? [TOPIC SPLIT]

[colleen_500]

This topic has been extracted from another topic as it was hijacking the original topic. See the original topic here:

http://roland-arranger.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=38&topic=843.0

Kind regards
Admin


Having been a lurker for some time now, I wanted to add my two cents to this topic.

 I'm afraid Roland missed the boat on the G70.

 Mind you, it did have a very good piano and a nice feeling keyboard, but it was HEAVY.

 Does Roland think we can all afford roadies?

  I'm an aerobics instructor, and have no problem with lifting reasonably heavy gear, but the G70 is awkward as well as heavy, especially when in a road case.

   It's heavier construction does not translate into better quality, because I have had several issues with the hardware, including several buttons, a slider, a whole keybed that had to be replaced, and a defective screen, also replaced, and fortunately all were covered by warranty.

    Needless to say, those issues didn't do much for my confidence in it's reliability.

    I regret to say I had to sell it, as I have seen more than one user do, and like me, it was mainly because of the portability(or lack of) issue.


   I currently use a Yamaha PSR-S900, and what bothers me, is how this seemingly flimsy instrument holds up so well, and how it's keyboard, although far more springy and cheaper then the G70(or the E-series), offers a wonderful velocity range; actually it is more responsive, and I don't like to admit that last part, because I had grown quite fond of the G70's keys.

   I tried different settings on the G70, but the Yamaha was always at least it's equal as far as response.
 
  Before someone suggests it; I have tried the E-60. Nice, but not professional sounding enough for my ears.

   Surprisingly, I don't miss the extra keys, but I guess it's because I don't play piano on an arranger, and there is plenty of room for solo right hand and left hand chording on five octaves.

   I know some of you need more; but, that's you, not me; and it's me I have to please; I make no apologies to advocates of a more than five octave arranger.

   The E-50 would, or should, have been my choice but the S900's Super Articulated sounds were the clincher for me.

   I do hope Roland has not abandoned the player who wants a great sounding but easily transportable instrument, and I do hope that they will offer at least the equivalent of Yamaha's Super Articulated voices in their new line of arrangers; and, if they keep dropping features like the chord sequencer(as someone pointed out) and the large/small orchestration thingy, and adding useless toys like MP3 players and that ridiculous D-Beam ( I got weary of people thinking I was dismissing them when I waved my hand over it) they will soon find their supporters abandoning ship and moving over to the competition.

   Just my opinion.

      Colleen

       

[Gunjongo]

   I know some of you need more; but, that's you, not me; and it's me I have to please;

Hi.

That's very well said words, and I wish both I and others would keep that in mind when we discuss in different forum/treads around the web. Every single one have personal needs to please, too often we tend to think others need just the same as we does.

[Ironhill]

Yes, and Colleen don't need to apologize to us for she is easily satiesfied.
Regards
Hanspeter   

[Bert]

It is allways a pleasure to get such a nice message from an aerobic instructor.
I like female aerobic instructors specially when they play keyboards.

[Diki]

Gentlemen, please! There's a lady in the room...

Perhaps understandable, should one chose to beard the lion in his den, but still no reason to be impolite.

Sorry, Colleen, but I am a slightly overweight, 50's, short keyboard player. And magically, I can manage the weight of the G70 and a proper flight case without being any kind of fitness instructor. But that may be because the quality of the sounds I play through is of FAR higher importance than what it weighs. In fact, it is almost the ONLY consideration.

Sure, there may be operational snags compared to others, OTOH there are indispensable, day to day features like the Makeup Tools that exist nowhere else, too. But the best OS in the world, played through lesser sounds, on a lightweight arranger is a compromise I am unwilling to take. Yamaha's pianos, drums, B3, and many other of it's meat and potatoes sounds lack punch and live impact, IMO. And even playing a good sound with a spongy, lightweight keyboard is an exercise in futility...

But you are right. You only have yourself to please.

Me too... 

[colleen_500]

Yes, and Colleen don't need to apologize to us for she is easily satiesfied.
Regards
Hanspeter   

  How wonderfully perceptive of you, Hans Peter.

  It is easy to see why there are so few female members on this forum; actually it is easy to see why there are so few members at all.

  Do you always exude such "charm" or am I just one of the more dubiously fortunate recipients?   

   Can't one mention the name Yamaha without triggering all your insecuities about your instrument?

   
   Colleen

   

[Diki]

Sorry, Colleen. Boys will be boys!

OTOH, you come to a Roland arranger forum, state you no longer have a Roland arranger, and proceed to rip it a new one (for the same old tired excuses). You were expecting better?

Try doing the same thing on a Yamaha forum, see what you get 

Sexism has nothing to do with it... take a look at some of the occasional male lurkers' posts when they dismiss our favorite keyboard..! Possibly your gender saved your a$$, rather than exacerbated the response!

You don't state your age, possibly that's a factor in the decision, but if you are young, well, I just hope your children don't get put down permanently when they get over 25 lbs. or so..! I have seen women happily tote a 45 lb.+ child around all day on their hip. I have seen guys happily tote a 60 lb+ combo amp to amplify their 25 lb. arranger, and STILL bitch about the G70.

Truth is, if something works for you, weight is immaterial. Ask any B3 player...

[Ironhill]

Yes, and Colleen don't need to apologize to us for she is easily satiesfied.
Regards
Hanspeter   

How wonderfully perceptive of you, Hans Peter.
It is easy to see why there are so few female members on this forum; actually it is easy to see why there are so few members at all.
Do you always exude such "charm" or am I just one of the more dubiously fortunate recipients?   
Can't one mention the name Yamaha without triggering all your insecuities about your instrument?
Colleen

Hello Colleen,
my comment applied to a bunch of G-70 functions and characteristics you don't need, obviously. Your answer gave the things a new turn, inappropriate and a bit naughty, IMO.
Regards
Hanspeter

[colleen_500]

Sorry, Colleen. Boys will be boys!

    Is it so hard to be gentlemen?

    Diki, if you can't see that your reply is gender based, (as was Bert's) then your narrowness of mind is directly proportional to your height. 

    I simply posted my peeves about the G70, as you so often do, and although it exposed Roland's dire shortcomings no more than yours, my post did not deserve the kind of responses it received.
 
    Make excuses for yourselves, and make excuses for the instruments, but in the long run, it does nothing to address the issues, and will only lower your credibility with the company.

    The complaints about the G70's excess bulk , among it's other long standing issues, are well known, and the reception I received here at Roland Arranger will be well known too; I have made many friends with those who work with Roland Canada and Roland USA.

   Your attempt to do a "spin" on my post does not minimize the instrument's shortcomings; you have tried these same impotent tactics on another forum, and it obviously didn't work there either; many people have sold or traded their G70 for instruments that were more practical, and they did not necessarily turn to Yamaha.

   You must remember, Diki, that not everyone shares your opinion, in spite of your belief that it is the only one that has any real validity; Gunjongo's post bears that out admirably.
 
   You "boys" stay as as you are; a seemingly perpetual state which, undoubtedly provides you with lame excuses, but will surely provide you with little plausibility to the gentlemen at Roland.

     
      Colleen

     

[colleen_500]

Yes, and Colleen don't need to apologize to us for she is easily satiesfied.
Regards
Hanspeter   

Hello Colleen,
my comment applied to a bunch of G-70 functions and characteristics you don't need, obviously. Your answer gave the things a new turn, inappropriate and a bit naughty, IMO.
Regards
Hanspeter

  Hans Peter,

   
     My reply was not inappropriate. I read nothing "naughty" in your reply, but I did find it rather condescending.

     You don't know my arranger needs, or my musical abilities; so please don't make assumptions.

       Colleen
     

[Bert]

It is really great to read your messages Colleen. But you did not tell us about
your weight .Why not ?
Weight is an important issue in the talk about keyboards so your own weight
must me of any importance too.
How do you use your keyboard in your aerobic lessons ?
Only for jumping over it or do you have more exercises in which a lightweight
keyboard can be used?

[adi matis]

please dont think of me as a unkind person, but this IS growing funny!
 
sorry coleen, for misinterpretation, but I assure you these gents are great!

[Diki]

Just curious, Colleen, but what, exactly, are you doing here? I don't know about you, but if I go to the PSR forum, and lambast everybody's favorite arranger for it's well known shortcomings, I certainly won't cry 'gender bias' when I receive the scorn I so rightly deserve!

But maybe that's just me being macho about my opinion...

On the web, you have NO sex. It's just bits and bytes. I neither care nor worry about what you say your name is. If you can't see how offensive your first post was, it matters not the slightest whether you are male or not. Offensive is as offensive does, and any response you get, from that point onwards is of your own doing.

There have been several female posters here, and all got treated with respect. But maybe that's because they SHOWED some respect also. Who knows, who cares. And please! Don't make us laugh. Roland Canada (or any other Roland division whatsoever), haven't shown the slightest interest in anything good OR bad posted here. However, threatening a member here, and making jokes about my stature (or lack of it!) will certainly show you for who you are when they review this spat (next Michaelmas muckspreading, as they say where I come from!). I have a few friends in Roland too. Whoop-te-doo! I guess now, doing the same as you, I am being sexist. I guess you just can't win. I should know better!

Please enjoy your PSR, and leave well enough alone. Just in case the difference eludes you, I don't post criticism of PSR's on the PSR forum because I DON'T HAVE ONE! Perhaps this non-gender specific advice could be taken to heart.

[colleen_500]

Thanks Diki; you did not disappoint me with your response.

 If you think my criticism of the G70 was disrespectful, then you are guilty of the same crime; but it's okay for you?

  Your first post on the G70 wasn't critical?

   In reality, most of your posts on the G70 were critical; but didn't you have to start some where?

    That's all I did.

     Yet, I am the "lambaster"?

    I honestly think you really don't read your own posts objectively; you just think that it's only your opinion that carries any weight.

    Well, sadly, anything that narrow wouldn't have any weight.

    Keep up the bad work; the results are already evident, as this forum loses membership ever so steadily; but you only seem to need a forum with one member.

     You.


    Colleen
       
   
   

[Ironhill]

Hi All,
what conclusion do we draw from all this?
1. An femal eaerobics instructor got a defective Roland arranger. This is  very    seldom, but it can happen like the same thing with a car, a sewing machine or what'ever. Best she address the criticism to the factory. 
2. The arranger is of  hight weight. As it seems the Lady didn't know this before.
3. Because she don't need that much keys, she ordered a light weighty keyboard with a newer sound chip, but less functions. That's within her rights.
4. There are people who confuses two problems: Hardware and Software.   

Usually we discuss in THIS FORUM functional (software) behaviour, the good   and the bad ones. This didn't know the pugnacious Lady till now.     
Regards
Hanspeter           

[colleen_500]

Hans Peter,

  I'm far from being "pugnacious", but under the circumstances, most anyone would react the way I did.

   All I did was criticize, and rightly so, the Roland G70, and having seen the many criticisms posted by Mr. Diki and a few others, I felt it was perfectly okay to express my own experiences.

   Obviously a bad move.

  It won't happen again.

 
      Colleen

   
   

[Erland]

Hey Colleen.

I felt it was perfectly okay to express my own experiences.

and you are fully in your right to do that....

I won´t get into this discussion      - but this don´t get us anywere..

(Bad karma)   

Erland

[Diki]

Just got to get one or two things in. First of all, sorry this thing got ugly so quick. Maybe it's just lurkers (of any sex), but one of the things that gets respect around here is participation. Long after you have sold something and moved on (or have you? Just curious why NOW this gets posted) you FINALLY show up and start to offer Roland criticism, and primarily it's weight, at that.

Yes, I believe there are MANY hugely important things for Roland to fix. But weight is the LAST of them. If they could incorporate all the FUNCTIONAL fixes we have so often talked about here, and the weight stays the same, it will be an enormous improvement. If they shave 15 lbs. off the weight, and leave everything else the same, it will still be a disaster.

The thing is, you can pick up a G70 in the store before you buy it. If it's too much for you, why buy it? But buying it, and THEN complaining about the weight (or, actually, waiting until long after you've sold it to complain about the weight!) seems pointless. I might also point out that the G70 is a scant four pounds heavier than the G1000, so it's weight should come as no surprise. Roland's have always been solidly built, durable arrangers. I will still be playing my G70 years after the S900 has given up the ghost, it's buttons unreliable, it's power supply jack intermittent, it's keyboard suffering from unreliable contacts with notes jumping out (all well documented Yamaha flaws)...

However, there are many things about the minutiae of an OS that don't show up during a play-through at the store. These have been my focus here at R-A.com and the previous G70 Users Club, not so much something I could tell at first touch...

But anyway, I digress. Colleen, you have to understand the difference between respecting someone's opinion, and agreeing with it. I respect your right to state your opinion. But I have absolutely no obligation to agree with it. I have LONG held that weight is the LEAST important problem Roland have, yet it remains your focus. Roland have NEVER made lightweight TOTL arrangers (they have budget lines, just like Yamaha, for that). This may indeed be a blunder, as the age of people that play arrangers gets older and older (because few youngsters use them for modern music), but, IMO, a shift to Yamaha-like construction and build quality will be a HUGE step backwards.

You might also consider that, yes, my opinion is the one that matters most to me

Just as YOUR opinion is the one that matters most to you. From your height joke about me, respect and sensitivity for others doesn't appear to be much of a priority with you, either... We apparently have a lot more in common than you are probably likely to admit!

But I'm curious... Were I to appear on your favorite Yamaha ONLY forum (do you lurk there as well, or do you actually participate regularly in any of them?), and start to criticize your favorite arranger, which I will proudly admit I do not have , will you be as forgiving of me, and will you defend me against the legion of scornful replies I will surely get from the membership? After all, I will have every right to criticize it there, as much as you do here...

No....? Didn't think so 

[colleen_500]

I am very forgiving, Diki.

 I can even overlook your arrogance, not that it would matter to you, but it makes me feel better knowing how insignificant it actually means to me.

 Thankfully there are other members here who are both humble AND well informed about Roland products.

  Have a nice day. 

    Colleen

   
 

[Diki]

I am very forgiving, Diki.

 I can even overlook your arrogance, not that it would matter to you, but it makes me feel better knowing how insignificant it actually means to me.

 Thankfully there are other members here who are both humble AND well informed about Roland products.

  Have a nice day. 

    Colleen 

Once again, you prove how similar we are... Neither of our arrogance's worry the other in the slightest. My insignificance to you is well mirrored (even more so since you don't even HAVE a Roland!). Curious, mind you, how you deftly ignore my questions...

Maybe it's just tough to admit that if others behaved like us, we would not expect them to be treated very well, either. Just from going to SZ and talking on a GENERAL arranger forum about shortcomings of Yamaha's, I am extremely familiar with how hostile any mention of it's well known problems are received from someone that doesn't even own one. So why anyone would expect any difference here beats me.

I am convinced that if I went to PSR World, or any of the main Yamaha fora (you still don't tell us if you lurk or participate over there), and placed a post there that basically mirrored your posts about Roland (and mentioned I didn't even have one), I would get exactly the same response you got here. Only less polite! If you disagree, I can provide proof, if necessary (although I'd rather not stir up that hornet's nest if I don't have to!). Try it yourself, just as an exercise, if you are under the impression that Yamaha users are somehow a kinder, gentler breed Sign in as a 'Newbie', and criticize for all you are worth (you HAVE found a problem or two with the PSR's, haven't you?). See what you get in response. Plenty of 'arrogance' to go around, if you wish to classify disagreement with your opinion that...

But yes, you are correct... there are many here humbler than the both of us  But perhaps none that know as much about Roland's as you apparently do, despite still owning and using them 

BTW, if this is you, Ian, having a laugh... Good one!

[colleen_500]

I am usually correct, Diki; it is not arrogance, but self-confidence in my case.

 I certainly don't profess to know everything about Roland arrangers; why would I be here?

 I have owned many Roland arrangers in the past, starting with the E-20, then the KR-500, the E-70(kept that one for quite a while), the KR-650(not a favorite) and culminating with the G70, which was what brought me to Roland Arranger.

  I have also used a Korg PA-800, which I quickly returned, a Yamaha Tyros (I had to have the screen replaced on it; very poorly made instrument) which I traded in on the G70.

  I have regularly criticised Yamaha and Korg on the relevant forums; no problem.

 I shall continue to contribute where possible, but I'll mostly go back to lurking and wait and see what future products will be worth my while.


     Cheers,

       Colleen

  BTW, let's stop hi-jacking this thread on poor old Adi.

[Diki]

I am usually correct, Diki; it is not arrogance, but self-confidence in my case.

LOL...

I wish I had some self-confidence... But I guess arrogance will have to do

[admin]

This topic has been extracted from another topic as it was hijacking the original topic. See the original topic here:

http://roland-arranger.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=38&topic=843.0

Kind regards
Admin

[keyboard]

Diki, Colleen

This was a very good read ......The end result was a respect for each other and  " thats a good thing ".   

[Diki]

Just to respond to the new topic title (was that your choice, Søren? )...

I'm just curious, but why is it assumed that, of all keyboards out there, arrangers HAVE to be the lightest..? Not to put too harsh a spin on it, but probably most players in the world that play stage pianos (Kurzweil, Roland RD series, Korg TOTL pianos, Yamaha Clavinova's) and TOTL WS's have keyboards that come close to the G70 or E80 in weight, and usually exceed it.

Somehow, mysteriously, they've either ALL got roadies, or have somehow come to terms with the fact that what they WANT to play is heavy. Probably less heavy than many other pieces of equipment they use (speakers, power amps, lighting racks, etc.), which they move relatively uncomplainingly, but heavy nonetheless. Of course, these things are a tiny FRACTION of what some of us old-timers remember (Rhodes's, B3's, Leslie's, CP70's, etc.), but heavy...

So why do we, of all people, complain the most? Is it that we are ALL too elderly to move them? That's not good news for the health of the arranger, if only the frail play them (the market will dry up pretty soon!). Is it that these are played primarily by OMB's, without even a duo partner to help out? Or is it that so few of us ever played much before retirement, and so don't understand what a huge improvement even these behemoths are?

But go to any WS forum, and look for all the posts about weight... Few and far between, compared to the number of posts about actual FEATURES, and OS's...

Thing is, if sound is NOT your #1 priority, but weight is, there is a multitude of arrangers out there, with not only lightweight cases, but lightweight actions, and lightweight sounds too.

As I said earlier, Roland's TOTL 76 arranger has ALWAYS been within five pounds of the G70. Fewer complained back in those days. Was it we were stronger then, or are we just more vocal now? Whatever it is, I must admit that, were Roland to shave off ten pounds on the next arranger, without compromising durability, stiffness and the action, it would be a good thing. But were they to fix ALL the OS blunders, and even ADD to the weight, it would still be my first choice.

Weight is the LAST thing I worry about. And weight should be the LAST thing Roland worry about. Yes, they should worry, but I guarantee that a flyweight TOTL Roland, without the action and durability of the G70, and without the OS blunders fixed will still be a sales disaster.

In the meantime, gigging pros around the world (even those without roadies!) are still buying heavier keyboards than the G70 in record numbers. What do they know that we don't?