Plan to expand my equipment

[Ironhill]

Hi All,
perhaps there are also other member thinking over expanding the possibilities of their equipment.
To me there are some reasons I do this too:
1. I love new things  
2. I need a backup (Experience of the two weeks repairing my E-80)
3. Get more knowlegde of other products
4. Need a light weighted keyboard for some outdoor games
There are some unrenounceable condition to me:
1. My E-80 (or successor) has to be the 'Control Center'   (I hate to handle two stack boards
    with different switches and or screens during playing)
2. The second machine improves my sound and style palett.
3. Match my needs regarding style tweaking
4. I expect a good service of the manufacturer and a adequate price.

So, first of all the important thing is the Midi implementation of the new board/expander.
I orderd a Midi Event Processor to improve my current Midi solutions. (I reported) Finaly
that will have a great influence on my next step. Nice to hear what other member plan.
Regards
Hanspeter  
                                        

[Diki]

Basically, your plan has one fatal flaw... Although you can program your E80 to play other keyboard's or module's SOUNDS easily enough, AFAIK, it isn't possible to control another arranger's style controls from the style controls of the E80.

So playing both at the same time is going to be a case of frustration if you really have to only use the one controller.

But probably the best unit to marry to your E80 might be a PSRS900 from Yamaha. It has great guitar styles, some killer SA sounds like acoustic guitar and saxes, and most importantly, doesn't sound anything like your E80 (no point in having two similar products).

It's also very light, inexpensive, and has a huge library of very good styles. The drums and pianos aren't up to the E80's level, but I think the guitars, percussion and brass may actually be even better!

But I don't think the idea of slaving two arrangers together, and getting the slave's arranger controls (Fills, endings, etc.) follow the master is doable.

Hope this helps.

[Ironhill]

Hi Diki,
to my estimation your post contains not enough knowlegde about the details. I know your preference for the new Yamaha arrangers, but it seems to me that you didn't read about the restricted Midi-possibilities of these products. Your answer is hasty and emotional.
Regards
Hanspeter         

[Diki]

Well, I think the restricted MIDI problems apply on BOTH ends of the system, Hans. Your MIDI processor MIGHT be able to address some of the problems, but one of the things I see being a big problem seems to be the Roland's erratic MIDI clock outs and ins. This has been talked about for a while, but no fix or even acknowledgment of the problem from Italy has ever come out. And primarily, it doesn't matter WHAT you connect downstream, if you can't clock them together accurately, they won't sync.

I DO know what I'm talking about here... I used to sync my G1000 and my computer sequencer together flawlessly, a total impossibility on my G70. Now I have to do my initial style recording on the Recorder, save as SMF, import to the computer and open in Cubase. What a time waster! Have you been successful slaving anything to your E80, or vice versa, by MIDI clock? Drum machines, another arranger, anything? My G1000, through a Midex MIDI interface was so tight, you never heard flamming, only mild phasing! Now THAT's tight sync!

Perhaps YOU are the one 'hasty and emotional', Hans. This may be a LOT more difficult than you planned...

Your list of requirements contain many tough calls. Firstly, that the second keyboard be essentially a remote module (you state "I hate to handle two stack boards with different switches and or screens during playing"), so your choices get limited to only arrangers that have codes to operate completely remotely. I don't know of anything currently that can do this, including your E80! As long as the second keyboard only provides sounds (your post doesn't state this, though, you say you want to improve the style choices, too), sure, the sky's the limit, but I (perhaps mistakenly) was under the impression you want BOTH arrangers to operate as one (you DO need an arranger as backup for an arranger, yes?). This is only going to work if BOTH your E80 and the slave can both be persuaded to send and receive the codes for fills, variations, etc.. Otherwise, you are just talking about sounds only (not what I inferred).

Style tweaking (makeup Tools, etc.?)... It's hard to find anything better (or even as good) as the Roland's.

Earlier, you state you want a "light weighted keyboard for some outdoor games" so again, you rule out some of the more flexible things like Wersi and Mediastation. Too heavy. E50/60, too similar to what you already have (wouldn't expand your palette at all!). Korg.... possibly. PA500, just released, sounds promising, but I know nothing about it's MIDI capabilities, yet.

My choice of Yamaha for you (and it WAS only a suggestion!) is based, not that I want to play one, but just that certain of it's strong points perfectly balance weak points in the Roland's. Guitar patterns (those Mega voice styles' guitars are light years past our Roland's, sadly), the percussion is very good, I like some of the brass, and the SA voices can sound exceptional, under the right fingers. It has MP3 playback (if you'd ever use that!) and recording, and, if the multi pads could be synced, a way of adding more flexibility to the Roland.

But back we are to the sync-ing feeling! Before you travel too far down this road, I seriously suggest you take your E80 to a music store, and see if you can get ANY arranger to sync tight enough with it. Don't worry about fills and the like, just see if putting the other keyboard into MIDI clock 'slave' mode and playing them at the same time doesn't cause any timing weirdness in the slave. Otherwise, you are back to only being able to use the slave's sounds, and no features...

But what you use is entirely up to you of course. I didn't expect to get reamed for just making a suggestion!
Best of luck with it all, and I hope to hear soon of your success! If anyone can make it work, I am sure it will be you!

[adi matis]

hanspeter,
maybe you'll need to adjust your demands...


if you want/need to control everything from E80, most likely adding a sound module would be the solution:
   + larger sound palette
   + takes less phisical space
   + controlable from E80
   - no new styles
   - no new controls

if you're willing to have whole another keyboard... no need to point out anything, you're good to go!

if i wanted to enhance my instrument, i most likely tried to go upper in the range (to e80, pa800, T2). but you already have E80, so... if i were you, i'd just add a sound module (whatever i liked, SD5, motif, etc) for enlarging the number and typre of sounds, and add as many styles as possible to E80 memory.

as diki mentioned, i also believe would a terrible headache to try to combine two arrangers engine into one single "control center". i never tried, but i am sure there's a ton of MIDI accidents that would mess up everything. not to say that even into a single one unit sometimes you can experience hickups of some kind...

or, if you are into it, you can add a laptop into the ecuation, and you might get some good extra sounds, styles, tweaks, programs, combis, effects, etc. still, the midi protocol might miss some things.

goodluck in solving your quest!

[Ironhill]

Thanks for your interest, Adi
but a modul is not sufficient to me because I like to have a backup for my keyboard, and the E-80 including a case i can't always transport without a second person. I hope that I get the Midi Event Processor this week and can study this thing in practice. If all things I read about it are OK I will see how comfortable my solution will be and what arranger I will buy, but I don't order it before the 'Frankfurt Fair' is over and I have had the possibility to test. My momentary thought sees the  letter 'g' on the board.
Regards
Hanspeter
     

[Ironhill]

I see Diki, your problem is not mine. Why are you such a doubter? About Yamaha: I played
Yamaha arrangers twelf years, a Tyros two years (with the G-70 keys). Believe me,
I know the shortcomings of YA... products very well and the SA-Voices are not in order to
compensate this. But thats a problem only in my case. Sure, Yamaha is a god SOLO-Instrument,
but it don't match my needs. So I think about Arrangers with an excellent MIDI-IN implementation.
I never had a great problem with Roland's MIDI clock and/or other Midi functions with the G-70/E-80
and I never read about that. The one little problem I know about I can live with.
Did I write that I will use the Roland style controls to control another arranger's style controls?
There are other possibilities e.g. 'User Programs', (Performances) and/or 'Foot Switches'.
But of course, I will try the Style Parameter function of Roland's 'MIDI-System' parameter in
combination with my new MIDI EVENT PROCESSOR and an additional arranger.
A necessity for that I don't see. I don't have that ONE WAY thinking. The minimum I need is
the initial User Program (Performance) CALL via MIdi, but that's not possible with your prefered
PSRS900. Who wrote about having two similar products? I never intend doing it. Please don't write
about fatal flaws of my plans. Wait some weeks with your judgement.
Regards
Hanspeter

[Diki]

Well, if the only commentary you want to hear, Hans, is commentary you agree with, maybe you could tell exactly what you DO intend to get, so we can all agree with you...

Nice to hear what other member plan

doesn't appear to have any meaning here, just

Nice to hear what other member plan, as long as I agree with it

.

Sorry for wasting your time.

[Bert]

Where two giants are fighting I think it is better to say nothing !!!

[Ironhill]

Where two giants are fighting I think it is better to say nothing !!!

No Bert,
that's not a fight, but I don't love to let me portray like a fool. If I write about my plans I have been thinking about that several times. As I said before: I will test and see how comfortable this can be.
THAT'S the only question.
Regards
Hanspeter
     

[Diki]

Please quote the section where I call you a fool, Hans...

Perhaps this will let me know where I am getting my English wrong. Or is that the other way around?

[Bert]

The best thing you could do now is geographlically not easy but I should
say,"Please sit down together and drink a good glass".

[adi matis]

..and now, group hug everyone, group hug!!!


noone's fool and no one said that! so, dont be too upset, because it's only a discussion, not a judgement. i am actually quite curious to hear what solution you'll find! we all might learn something new! i alreadu heard something i didn't know, about that midi signal processor... what does it do? i think i should search google little bit...

[Diki]

As I said, if anyone can do this, I am sure Hans will find a way. He is nobody's fool!

But all I was trying to point out was, firstly the clocking problems I personally have encountered, and secondly, in his initial post he quite firmly states

I hate to handle two stack boards with different switches and or screens during playing

I took this as a desire to control everything from the E80, or the E80 and the MIDI processor (which I don't know what it can and can't do). I am sorry if I was mistaken.

In the past, I have tried to control my G1000 remotely from a computer, and have a little knowledge of the problems that arise. Maybe that is a dangerous thing (it appears to have been, from the response!), but it's not like I'm making this stuff up... I can neither get my computer to lock tightly with my G70, nor my G70 with the computer. It appears to be a MIDI clock issue. I am just hoping that maybe the E80/60/50 has had this corrected, but no-one has reported this. I guess it's just something not too many of us do.

But anyway, last thing I want is a fight (got SZ for that!), and I await Hans's results with the same anticipation the rest of you do. Like I said... after seeing Hans figure out the Program Change to external gear issue, I am sure that, if it CAN be done, he will find the way! 

[Bert]

I am curious about the "g".
All what I see is a Fantom G or a GEM but there can be more.

[adi matis]

...there's also juno g, a very nice little machine i believe:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=756

 

[Ironhill]

He is nobody's fool!

Hi Diki,
no, you didn't use the word 'fool', but after your first reactions I felt like a disobedient child or similar.   
Regarding Midi, Roland did their homework, I think. The E80 can transmit Style CC's including
the variation number (PC), Userprogram CC's and others. The only question is how to make this
understandable for a competitor. A lttle help can be done by MIDI SOLUTION's 'Midi Event
Processor'. Of course, this (not very expensive) box can't translate all possible codes, but
process e.g. the 'User Program Control Code' and some others seems to be possible.
(I didn't get it yet.) Korg e.g. is able to select the User Programs, so called Performance, via Midi.
That will be sufficient for me to begin with. The new Korg PA500 seem to be the right addition,
but it isn't available yet on the German market, and the Users Manual is not ready for download.
So I must wait a while to test my plan. I will report my experience in some weeks or so. Thanks
for your post.
Regards
Hanspeter           

[Ironhill]

I am curious about the "g".
All what I see is a Fantom G or a GEM but there can be more.

Excuse my little joke, Bert. That's the ending "g". 
Regards
Hanspeter
 

[Ironhill]

something i didn't know, about that midi signal processor... what does it do? i think i should search google little bit...

Hi Adi, here is the link:
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodepp.htm
Regards
Hanspeter

[adi matis]

thanks!

i also was looking at pa500... of course, for different purpose (to use it as a single unit) and i believe is a great keyboard. i am not ready to give up on E60 yet, so i put this on hold! but for your purpose, i think should be an interesting solution.
keep us informed!

[vismus]

Hans:
Looked briefly at the Midi Solutions Event Processor and it does an amazing out of things! 

One thing that you may be aware of is the event processor uses system exclusive information as a source input.  I'm not certain there is much G70 user control over system exclusive or SysX.  (For those not familiar with System Exclusive, it is a dense code of information, specific to the instrument which sends and receives it, used mostly for backup and reload of the internal memory.  It can also be used to send controller information but sends this info in packets, not in a serial stream.)  Because SysX sends info in packets, it can disrupt clock timing greatly.  For small packets of events there may well be no issue but when sequencing, SysX can cause weird anomalies.  My partner called with a stuck note issue just yesterday and we tracked it to an open SysX filter.  More food for thought.

[Ironhill]

Hi Tom,
yes, I know this SysEx problem in general. But testing the Event Processor plus I didn't see problems because I had a very fast respond after processing all possible events. Programming the box I bought a Roland 'EDIROL UM-2ex USB Midi Interface (€ 39). Program definitions can be made with a very easy to use tool. On one question I had about this I got an answer from factory service in Canada within half a day. Great!! I have a really good feeling about my plan. Because the PA500 User Manual is not yet available , I orientate by the Midi-possibilities of the PA800 and PA50.
Regards
Hanspeter     

[adi matis]

so, hanspeter, do you intend to get a pa500 then?

[Ironhill]

Hi Adi,
there is no alternative to that, I think. Only Korg arrangers can receive the program changes to select
the style elements, like variation number, intros, endings, fill and so on. The E80/G70 logical provides all this PCs using the arranger switches. To make them compatible I use the Event Processor. Selecting the Korg performances I use the former solution  used already for the SD2. The final decision I will make as soon as the Midi specs for the PA500 are published.
Regards
Hanspeter

[adi matis]

good for you! korg should cover quite a bit of features/sounds/styles roland does not, so you got a "best of two worlds" this way.
i am pretty sure the midi specs will be the same as pa800. they should put up on web that manual already!