Love your arranger keyboard...?

You've come to the right place! We are a honeywell of relevant information. Listen to the experts for tips and tricks. Read our blog posts to get ideas and inspiration. Expand your social network. Discover what is possible with your arranger keyboard. Visit the forum right now to get started.

×
Come join the forum

Register an account and participate in the forum is an active member of the user club

www.roland-arranger.com/index.php/compon...s/?view=registration

Sysex for BK3
3 weeks 1 day ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #543
t's me again, my control panel projet is well advance most of the control parameters are programmed.

Beside by the menus some parameters are externally accesible via SYSEX message.
EX: Parameters for the equaliser,

High Freq 1500 Hz, 2000 Hz,3000 Hz, 4000 Hz,6000 Hz, 8000 Hz,12000 Hz Sysex F0 41 10 00 00 54 12 18 00 2A 4A xx cs F7 xx = 00-06 cs 74-6E

My control panel recongnize them but when I tried to send SYSEX messages to the BK3 they are not recongnized.

I have verified the message structure and check sum and all is Ok with the documentation and it's also similar with the messages sent by the keyboard.

It's like if the SYSEX RX option is not enable. Viewing that there is no documentation for the BK3 I looked in the BK5 manual.

I found the Following at many place in the manual…..

( Not received when RX SYSEX parameter (MENU/MIDI/EDIT/System/
Param) is OFF. )

When I look in the menus of the BK3 this option is not present so there is no way see or to switch the SYSEX ON or OFF
So how can I turn ON the SYSEX RX or this address range is only transmitted not received?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

3 weeks 1 day ago
Diki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 190
Karma: 2
More
Sysex for BK3 #544
If I remember correctly, the Song Parts have a different sysex header address to the Keyboard Parts. Perhaps that is at the root of your issue?

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

3 weeks 1 day ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #545
Hi Diki, That's true for parameters on page 12-15 of the BK5 manual but the ones I'm interest for are the ones on page 11 who are common for all and the ones on pages 16 and after.

Also when we modify a parameter in the performance menu it's for the keyboard part and when the value change the BK3 send a SYSEX message. These message match with the manual and I'm using the same one.

So I'm still scratching my head to find what's wrong.

If somebody got success to send SYSEX to the BK3 feel free to share.

Regards

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 5 days ago
Diki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 190
Karma: 2
More
Sysex for BK3 #549
I was under the impression that Song Parts' EQ's were different to Keyboard Part ones, at least as far as address. That's why it is often problematical to send Keyboard Part information (from an external DAW/Sequencer, for instance) to a BK set up to receive on a MIDI Set set to Song Mode. And why SMF's treated by Makeup Tools, unless frozen (and even freezing doesn't correctly convert all parameters changed) won't play correctly in the 16 Track Sequencer (if your BK has one).

In truth, even Roland only made a detailed editor for the BK-9, you couldn't use it on the other BK's... There must be something going on under the hood that prevented them from releasing the voice editor iPad app for all the BK's.

Have you downloaded the BK-7m MIDI PDF? That had a whole extra bunch of information that didn't make it into the other BK's PDF's, presumably because Roland knew, as a module, that owners would be looking for as much detail as possible. Perhaps there's a code for RxSysex in there that you can send to the BK3?

I hope you find a solution to your problem, but in fairness, it is perhaps hard to expect that Roland allow as much control of their cheapest arranger as they do of their more expensive ones. It is not too often that those that purchase the least expensive models are expecting as intricate a user MIDI control over them as power users buying the TOTL models.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 5 days ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #550
Hi Diki, about different address range for song and keyboard it's true for address range 40 1x yy and 40 2x yy for song and 50 1x yy 50 2x yy for keyboard.
The other ones are common.

What is strange is in the MIDI chart of the BK3 manual SYSEX are marked as receive and transmit but without the comment to be switchable On or Off as in other manuals.

Anyway I continu to post on different forum to see if somebody got success with sysex on the BK3

In my panel I allready have plenty of control implmented the easy the live performances. It just would have been a bonus to access these complemental parameters.

Thanks for your help.

PS: I join a picture of my preliminary Control Panel it's not completed yet but everything there is working up to now.

Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 5 days ago 2 weeks 5 days ago by Diki.
Diki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 190
Karma: 2
More
Sysex for BK3 #553
So you are saying that no sysex is being received at all?

I'm afraid that is a question that only Roland are likely to be able to answer. Have you contacted them at all?

Have you tried the idea of trying the different header address for the EQ just in case that IS the issue? How many parameters are you trying to send via sysex? Or is EQ the only thing you have tried so far?

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 5 days ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #555
Up to now I have tried the ones for equaliser, MFX, Chorus and Reverb without success. Naturally I didn't tried all possible messages.

And there is some I don't want to mess up with to avoid undesirable side effect.

I have wrote to Roland without answer up to now.

I launch some lines on a couple of forum just to see if somebody allready got success with sysex. No answer there either.

Thanks for suggestions I'l continue to dig in the message list to find if something work.

BTW what do you think about my control panel layout. Still some functions to finish but it's well advanced.

Functions to come Lower/Upper/Style patch selection, favorite button for lower/upper, performance selection.

If you have suggestions or comments fell free to share.

Regards

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 4 days ago 2 weeks 4 days ago by Diki.
Diki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 190
Karma: 2
More
Sysex for BK3 #560
Looks great so far!

About the only suggestion I'd have to make would be that other BK's have multiple Parts below and above the the split point. The layout you have now is pretty BK3 specific.

If you are going to add a Favorites section, it might be cool if you could have the Tone# and the editing offsets stored... I always felt that Roland kind of dropped the ball by not allowing Favorites to be anything more than simply the ROM preset. Most of us find ourselves, if editing a Tone, that we pretty much need the same edits every time we use the Tone. It would have been nice if the Favorites selection called up our edits, too.

I am not sure what the Vibrato/Rotary label means. Maybe it's a foreign language thing, but in the Parameter list, there's no section for 'Rotary' (other than in the MFX controls).

And, is it possible to enable a Split Point slider? That might be something you want to mess with, live or editing....

This is a good layout. Perhaps the only thing I might suggest for live is to have more color, to make easily visible which sections run the UPR and LWR Parts.

And maybe one more button... for a GS reset. If things get messed up with the sysex especially if you want to try more parameters... I am always fond of modulating LFO Rate from a mod wheel so vibratos can get a hair faster as they get deeper (that's what a lot of real instruments tend to do), but the only way to enable it is sysex. A GS reset will quickly bring you back to the base parameters.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 4 days ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #561
Hi Diki I recopy your message to comment more easily over each sections.

About the only suggestion I'd have to make would be that other BK's have multiple Parts below and above the the split point. The layout you have now is pretty BK3 specific.

Yes I develop my panel particularly for the BK3 but it's relatevely easy to add tabs and copy the control for a section in a new tab then edit the channel # to control another section. Also I don't have other models on hand to check if everything is working well


If you are going to add a Favorites section, it might be cool if you could have the Tone# and the editing offsets stored... I always felt that Roland kind of dropped the ball by not allowing Favorites to be anything more than simply the ROM preset. Most of us find ourselves, if editing a Tone, that we pretty much need the same edits every time we use the Tone. It would have been nice if the Favorites selection called up our edits, too.

Using the favorites this way is really interesting but it would require a lot of programming. Up to now it is possible to adjust the parameter to your taste and save it in a performance. My plan is to have 10 buttons for lower and 10 more for the upper part with the tone name over the button. Tone # would also be nice but just to have the tone name I had to reduce the font size.


I'm planning to use this panel on a 10in touch control tablet so elements must not to be too small allowing the fingers to easily reach each control. With a 21in touch screen it would be another story


I am not sure what the Vibrato/Rotary label means. Maybe it's a foreign language thing, but in the Parameter list, there's no section for 'Rotary' (other than in the MFX controls).

Vibrato is the tone frequency modulation by the LFO. Rotary refer to the Lesley rotary speaker applied to the organ tone this parameter is control by the C1 controler unless you have another term for it. (My native language is french so my english is not 100% correct)

And, is it possible to enable a Split Point slider? That might be something you want to mess with, live or editing....

I don't know if there is a MIDI message for the slit point

This is a good layout. Perhaps the only thing I might suggest for live is to have more color, to make easily visible which sections run the UPR and LWR Parts.

Have to experiment it to see the result

And maybe one more button... for a GS reset. If things get messed up with the sysex especially if you want to try more parameters... I am always fond of modulating LFO Rate from a mod wheel so vibratos can get a hair faster as they get deeper (that's what a lot of real instruments tend to do), but the only way to enable it is sysex. A GS reset will quickly bring you back to the base parameters.

I looked in the MIDI implementation and the messages for GM GM2 and GS seem to be applicable to the song part only

Thanks for your comments, it's appreciate

Marc

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 3 days ago
Willem52
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 65
Karma: 2
More
Sysex for BK3 #562
Marc,

Could it just be a limited midi / sysex support in the Roland BK-3 O.S. ?

If you have the opportunity to test it on another BK series arranger type,
that would be useful to have checked out.

Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820 and EMU Xboard61.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 3 days ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #563
Thanks Willem, what I plan to do I trying messages one by one to see if some pass, viewing that I don't have access to another BK instrument.

What I have done is reading all the BK family manuals. I found, in the BK9 manual, a note that is not in the other about the patch parameter address range.

It's only for the address range 40 1x yy and 40 2x yy (song part) and 50 1x yy 50 2x yy (keyboard part) that this address range can only be control by SMF played in the keyboard. The functions that I'm interested in are not in this address range.

One thing strange is why the BK transmit SYSEX if it could not be received by another instrument. Or maybe, like you said, only some other members of the BK family can receive them.

Any way it still many others controls, who are working, to play with to give interesting effects.

Thanks to all for your help.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 2 days ago
Diki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 190
Karma: 2
More
Sysex for BK3 #566
It's interesting that the BK-3 manual has no parameters for sysex on/off (or any sysex parameters at all). The MIDI implementation says yes, sys-ex received and sent, but no indication of what. It could mean as little as a GS reset, and it would be technically correct.

Just to double check, you DO have your MIDI Tx/Rx Preset set to default (Kbd/Rhythm) right? (p.60 in the BK-3 pdf) And you are sending to the sysex address for Keyboard Parts?

I have reached out to my US Roland tech support and asked them about Sysex reception on the BK-3. Possibly they'll send me a reply.

About the only thing I can suggest while we wait for a reply is, can you hook your editor up to a MIDI sequencer and take a look at the sysex in the raw for a simple EQ parameter move?

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 2 days ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #567
Hi Diki, yes I set the tx/rx to Kbd/Rhythm. The address range I've tested don't have seperate address for song and keyboard.

For the message I was planning to use I use MidiOx to read the output from the keyboard and the messages match with the documents. But when I sent these back to the keyboard it got no effect.

Naturally I tried different value and matching checksum to see if it change.

Hope to have a more precise answer from the US than I got from Canada. ..... to be continu

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 2 days ago 2 weeks 2 days ago by Diki.
Diki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 190
Karma: 2
More
Sysex for BK3 #568
Have you tried the different header for keyboard and song parts just in case the documentation is wrong?

This seems pretty definitive... (from the BK-5 MI pdf)

The BK-5 has 20 Parts: 4 parts assigned to the Keyboard, and 16 parts for Songs.
For Keyboard part control, use the address [50 xx xx]
For Song part control, use the address [40 xx xx]


The BK-3, if like the BK-5, has 16 Parts for Song and 3 Parts for Keyboard (4 Keyboard for BK-5). The EQ for the Keyboard Parts MUST have a different address from the Song Parts.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 weeks 1 day ago
Quimquim
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
More
Topic Author
Sysex for BK3 #569
The equiliser messages I want to use are not in the 40-50 range. They are in INDIVIDUAL PARAMETER TRANSMISSION XV GENERATION (Model ID BK-5 = 00H, 00H, 54H) page 16 of the BK5 manual, and I guess they are suppose to be work in both way because of the note just below the title

Individual Parameter Transmission transmits data (or requests data) for one parameter as one exclusive message (one packet of “F0…F7”).

I you look at the page 21 there is two panel for the Equaliser one for song and one for keyboard but they are the same. (see picture attached)

I'm using 18 00 23 yy for upper keyboard and 18 00 2A yy for the lower part.

Also when you modify these parameters in the Performance menu it's for the keyboard part and the message transmitted are at the address 18 23 and 18 2A for upper and lower. So I guess th 2x value are good.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.