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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi?
6 months 1 week ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #58
Hello,

Is it possible to load a specific performance list via MIDI commands?

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6 months 1 week ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #62
Sadly, no. You CAN call up Performances inside the List by MIDI, but not the List itself.

It is one of the reasons why the 999 entry BK List structure is far superior to the (inexplicable) reduction to 100 by the E-A7. Particularly if you use a tablet/iPad to display charts (and Link to Performances), having to manually change Perf. Lists once you exceed that 100 limits turns what is a very useful gig tool (I know of few people who's regular gig repertoire exceeds 1000 songs) into something that is a mess of looking up which particular 100-entry List is the correct one to load so the tablet/iPad works correctly.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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6 months 1 week ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #64
Oh too bad. The player software I'm writing lets you change to an "external" style on the USB drive (by loading a performance via midi)... I could have more than the 999 external styles available without touching the player If I could load an arbitrary performance list through midi.

Too bad they stopped updating this, this functionality could be easily added.

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6 months 1 week ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #69
Curious as to why you need more than 999 entries? You really use that many styles?

Personally, I think a lot of people get hung up on unnecessary needs. In a practical world, who seriously gigs out with an active, often used 1000+ song repertoire?

Truth is, you get to the point that the same Performance can be used over and over again as long as you use the Tap Tempo button. You can also use the Performance Hold function to allow you to switch keyboard setups without disturbing the style... But if using a tablet, there's no limitation on several entries (different charts, lyrics etc.) addressing the same Performance.

Sure, in a perfect world, there wouldn't be ANY limit to ANYTHING. But register banks in software rarely are limitless.

I find 1000 entries more than sufficient. In fact, without a tablet, once you get up to several hundred, it becomes quite a PITA scrolling like a madman to get from one entry high in the List to one low...

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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6 months 1 week ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #70
Hi Diki,

I'm a guitarist, and I bought my Bk for practicing and enjoyment purposes. I'm currently writing software to "play" the Bk for me, while I play the guitar. What I want to do is enter a song into my software (e.g. chord changes from a "fake" book), and choose a style for whatever mood I'm in, and let the Bk play.

For example, tonight I might feel like soloing over the standard "All The Things You Are" using a nice" Jazz Fusion" style, but tomorrow I might want to use an "Unplugged Rock Swing" style on the very same song, or maybe a "Big Band" style. My software will probably keep a list of "Favorite" styles for each song, but the idea is to explore playing a familiar song in some nice sounding style.

I use "Performances" to load external styles from the USB drive. So, on the USB drive, I have a folder called "Bk-LB01Extra Styles" which I got on this forum. I also have a folder called "Psr 900 Converted". My software will read these folders, and create performance lists, and save the performance lists on the USB drive for you. The software will then allow you to pick those styles or the internal ones from a view (See the screen shot).

Since the external styles are stored in separate performance lists, the correct list must be loaded before the Bk can switch to a performance (to use the external style). This is why I wanted to be able to load a performance list programmatically.

You can never have to many styles! I like to explore playing familiar songs with different "feels", or sometimes just soloing over interesting chord changes in some interesting style. As you can tell, I use my Bk differently than a performing musician might use his.

I hope this answers your question, and thanks for your help.
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6 months 1 week ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #74
I would think that, if you went through those folders, auditioned the styles and only kept those you actually LIKE, you might be able to whittle them down to where they would all fit on the same Performance List..! I hate to say it, but most conversions and legacy styles really don't stand up to the newest ones without a TON of work to improve them.

As I said earlier, there's a strong tendency to want capabilities we don't, if we really examine the problem, actually need..!

I have tens of thousands of styles amassed over the decades. Compared to the best of the latest generation arranger styles, they are stiff as a brick and offer little ability to avoid repetition (old Roland styles had only two fills, for instance). The thought of all of them online, ready to go doesn't really get my juices flowing!

BTW, have you considered using Band In A Box on your computer? This seems like the perfect solution... type in the chords, select where you need fills and variations (and intro/endings) and off you go. The latest version uses audio loops, and can give you awesome results...

I am afraid that, as you are beginning to see, hardware arrangers aren't really designed with your needs in mind, being far more set up for live musicians. Have you also considered a MIDI pickup for your guitar? Quite a few guitarists do this.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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6 months 6 days ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #81
I'm a little surprised at your response here. It would be bad enough if it came from a random person, but you are a moderator, and a blog leader.

I
As I said earlier, there's a strong tendency to want capabilities we don't, if we really examine the problem, actually need..!

You've probably used that diatribe so often that you do it without even thinking. The makers of the arranger correctly give the user the ability to organize performances over as many files as they want. They didn't limit the device to exactly one performance list of 999 entries and expect that everyone will use the box exactly the same way. They designed it to be versatile. So, it would therefore make sense that the selection of a performance list should be automated via midi, exactly the same way style selection is automated via midi, and performances selection is automated via midi. Because it's functionality YOU don't need, it doesn't mean someone else doesn't need it.

I have tens of thousands of styles amassed over the decades. Compared to the best of the latest generation arranger styles, they are stiff as a brick and offer little ability to avoid repetition (old Roland styles had only two fills, for instance). The thought of all of them online, ready to go doesn't really get my juices flowing!

I don't even know what to say here. I guess we must all think alike?

I am afraid that, as you are beginning to see, hardware arrangers aren't really designed with your needs in mind, being far more set up for live musicians. Have you also considered a MIDI pickup for your guitar? Quite a few guitarists do this.

Is that so? The arranger is set up for live musicians? Exactly how is this so? Is it set up for solo bassists, saxophonists, trombonists, guitarists, trumpeters, violinists, clarinetists, flutists, cellists, or kazoo players that might wish to play with accompaniment? ? I guess these "live" musicians should attempt to midify an instrument that was never meant to be midified so they can use the arranger?

The arranger isn't set up for live musicians at all. it's set up for keyboardists. And really, why would a keyboardist buy this thing when they could get the full arranger and have one less piece of equipment to lug around? So in reality, the thing was designed for accordionists, all three of them left in the USA that haven't been beaten up and their glasses crushed. No performing musician EXCEPT keyboardists or accordion players can use this without running external computer based software.

I really just wanted some support, and perhaps some interest in my endeavor, not judgemental diatribe.

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6 months 3 days ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #89
I am so sorry you chose to label my heartfelt advice as some kind of diatribe. I am merely trying to give you the benefit of nearly 40 years of using these things. I didn't design the BK-7m, if I had, perhaps it would be a very different beast (it certainly would have had a Chord Sequencer and Mark/Jump for SMF's if I had, which would have solved your problem!).

But one thing I am pretty sure of is, I don't know of ANY arranger (nor any other keyboard, AFAIK) that can address its full file functions (i.e. loading, saving external data) via MIDI. Apparently, not just I but the entire industry fails to see the need you have. Don't shoot the messenger! Arrangers aren't computers.

And no, BK-7m's aren't designed for JUST keyboard players (reread my answer, I said FAR MORE, not solely) but yes, they are designed far more for live players inputting the chords or using SMF's and MP3's than they are having computers input the chords. As you are beginning to find out. Solo instruments will never be able to play a BK-7m live (hard to get a chord out of a bassoon!) but I know of several guitarists who do. There's nothing weird about MIDI guitars, they've been around 40 years or so!

But the way that arrangers are designed on the whole, should you choose to go with non-realtime chord input, your options are SMF's or MP3's. You are beginning to find the design limitations for the way you have decided to try and use it, but, as you have found out, the designers themselves made no functions to enable it. Apparently, it isn't just ME! Perhaps your ire, if you want to direct it at the source rather than the messenger, should go to Roland. Or the entire industry, as no other arranger does what you want, either...

Everybody wants everything. Nobody is willing to pay for a device that CAN do it all, though! For a sub-$1000 unit, it is quite amazing what the BK-7m actually can do. But no, it doesn't do everything. If you want to take my advice as to either workarounds or adjustments to expectations as some kind of diatribe, I think you are simply in denial. I am willing to help you find ways of using your BK-7m that may work (if you are willing to adjust), or I have suggested moving to a software program like BIAB (which seems to be FAR more set up for how you want to work), but if you want to get only the answer you want, you may be coming to the wrong place..!

There is no way to do what you want. Roland designed it that way (not me!). Deal with it, or move on.

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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5 months 3 weeks ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #109
I have a working, professional quality program that I wrote that will play this device from a PC. I've designed an algorithm for chord entry that allows users to type in chord changes in their preferred format. In addition to the chord entry, the program also imports song files from several other programs so that users can take advantage of thousands of online song files. I have added features to support improvisation, random song generation, algorithmic chord substitutions, live performance, and simply jamming to tunes in any style one might ant without ever putting one's hands on the Bk. I intend to continue improving the program to add more features over time. I will eventually add AI features for improvisational jamming, and improve the songwriting tools.

www.hooktheory.com/blog/i-analyzed-the-c...his-is-what-i-found/

I asked the community if it was possible to programmatically switch performance lists because I thought I might have missed something in the documentation. The absence of such basic functionality is surprising, because such basic functionality is simple to implement in firmware. Not being able to switch performance lists isn't a deal breaker, I can certainly work around this limitation in my program. It would have been a nice feature to have, because I would have been able to switch through a massive style library without putting my hands on the Bk. I'm pretty sure that you're non-technical and have never designed anything, but it's possible to design a system to accommodate limitations. My program works just fine even though i can't switch performance lists via MIDI.

Your opinions and false facts aren't helpful

False fact #1:

"Arrangers aren't computers."

Is that so? Arrangers are computers, in every sense of the word. What the hell do you think is running the firmware you upgrade? This is your idea of being helpful and knowledgeable? What are they? Magic boxes?

False fact #2:.

"But the way that arrangers are designed on the whole, should you choose to go with non-realtime chord input, your options are SMF's or MP3's"

I am sitting in front of a professional quality application that I designed and created, that plays the Bk in real time. I can play, jam, sing, perform, and generally enjoy the box. I don't know what the hell you're talking about here. I am letting the computer play the device in real time without SMFs or MP3s, which by the way would defeat the entire purpose of being able to at minimum, switch styles on a whim.

False fact #3

"Everybody wants everything. Nobody is willing to pay for a device that CAN do it all, though!"

Firmware is free. Adding functionality to the operating system does nothing to increase the cost of the product, it's maintenance. The Bk is still in production. It needs a firmware upgrade because arrangers have come a long way since it was introduced. You clearly don't know what you're talking about at all..

False fact #4

"You are beginning to find the design limitations for the way you have decided to try and use it, but, as you have found out, the designers themselves made no functions to enable it."

Thank you so much for telling me what I'm thinking, and your insight into what the designers were thinking Where do I find the magic beans that let me read minds, too? What I think is that your opinions and false facts aren't helpful to anyone.

I don't even know what to call this #5

"There's nothing weird about MIDI guitars, they've been around 40 years or so!"

So play one. Must I too?

None of this is helpful.

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5 months 3 weeks ago
cbee
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #111
It’s a shame that Diki is so self obsessed because he is often quite helpful, as others may point out. Unfortunately, Diki is like one or two other moderators and owners of forums. I have musical equipment from Korg, Roland, Yamaha, M-Audio and others and I have used many forums. The best forums in my opinion are based around the Yamaha brand. If you look at the PSR Tutorial, you will see what I mean. It’s almost a certainty that some forum members will not post (or even visit) if forum moderators and forum owners insist on having the only opinion and the only expertise that matters. Another problem with forum moderators and owners is that they have the power to delete any post (even this post) so that in the end, the moderator or owner will always finish on top, justly or otherwise. I know moderators are needed but so is moderation.

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5 months 3 weeks ago
Willem52
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #112
@John (See message #109):
It's certainly not that Black or White at all, this area is in this case Grey.
There are always 2 sides, the player's and the technical side... they can be different!

Please do not push it to the person, it certainly will hurt this community!
Think it through before writing and keep it respectful to people.

Roland E-80 V2.03 + SRX-06 + SR-G01, FC-7, PK-5, SC-8820 and EMU Xboard61.

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5 months 3 weeks ago 5 months 3 weeks ago by Diki.
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #114
False fact... firmware is NOT free. This coming from someone who ought to know EXACTLY how long it takes to write code is something I fail to understand. You think Roland work for free? You think they haven't got other paying projects to work on? You think they want to drop everything they are doing so that they can completely rewrite their OS for just ONE person?

False fact... It is NOT simple to add full file system support in a non-conputer environment. Kudos to you for writing a computer program. But you don't seem to be very aware of the limitations for writing for a NON-computer based system. As I said earlier (and you completely failed to acknowledge), I know of no keyboards that allow full MIDI control of file systems (if you do, please let me know!). Perhaps you don't know quite as much as you seem to think. I can think of several ways in which a closed system like a keyboard's OS is considerably different from a computer OS. File tracking and DB functions for one.

As you may be aware, keyboard OS's tend to be far simpler in their file handling. Move stuff around, even within the keyboard itself rather than an external computer, and the keyboard OS is completely lost as to where it is. Ever moved a folder in the BK's file structure that has used resources? Ever got the dreaded 'file not found' message? Ever wondered why? Without a full Finder/Explorer capability in the keyboard's OS, you will never be able to automate file functions either by MIDI or anything else.

False fact... Typing your chords in in advance and then playing that into an arranger is NOT a 'realtime' system. That is basically exactly what BIAB does. A realtime system is the chords being PLAYED realtime, and the arranger responding to that. Which is why I suggested a MIDI guitar.

False fact. This is neither a common need nor an expected one. You are the first person EVER to request this kind of functionality. I would imagine that Roland (and every other keyboard maker) need more than just YOU to need it before they expend considerable money in R&D to develop this. It is hard enough to get an OS update to address anything that almost everyone wants!

And, feel free to go to any Yamaha forum. Demand Yamaha rewrite their OS to add a feature that nobody else has ever asked for, and no other keyboard ever has had. Then insult their moderators when they point the obvious out to you.

Bon voyage... :evil:

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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5 months 3 weeks ago
Diki
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #115

cbee wrote: It’s a shame that Diki is so self obsessed because he is often quite helpful, as others may point out. Unfortunately, Diki is like one or two other moderators and owners of forums. I have musical equipment from Korg, Roland, Yamaha, M-Audio and others and I have used many forums. The best forums in my opinion are based around the Yamaha brand. If you look at the PSR Tutorial, you will see what I mean. It’s almost a certainty that some forum members will not post (or even visit) if forum moderators and forum owners insist on having the only opinion and the only expertise that matters. Another problem with forum moderators and owners is that they have the power to delete any post (even this post) so that in the end, the moderator or owner will always finish on top, justly or otherwise. I know moderators are needed but so is moderation.


So, if I don't delete your insulting post, how does that fit your point of view? I rather prefer to leave them up, to show you your opinion (no matter how insulting) is worth leaving up so the rest of the forum can decide about YOU...

Mine is not the only opinion here. It does however, in this particular thread, happen to coincide with how the ENTIRE INDUSTRY thinks about the issue. You aren't disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with Korg, with Yamaha, with Roland, with just about any hardware manufacturer. Feel free to write to them and insult them, too. Bon voyage!

BK-9 BK-7m G70. Kurzweil K2500S, Korg Triton. Samick upright piano. iMac 27", HR824 monitors.

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5 months 3 weeks ago
cbee
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #116
Diki, did you think I was basing my opinion on just this one thread and just this one forum. No, that is not the case. I stand by what I have written. Admitted, you have driven me away. I will never post on this forum again. I might be tempted to reply, but not post and I’m not going anywhere, so the Bon voyage is a little premature, it was just wishful thinking on your part. I will still be watching as you continue to find fault with others, especially those whose native language is not English and cannot defend themselves so easily. To say that you are self obsessed or self absorbed if you prefer, is only an insult if it is untrue. I believe it to be true. It was not and is not my intention to insult you. The reason you feel insulted is that you cannot accept any arguement that does not coincide with your own views. Having said that, I’m pleased that you are not going to delete this post. It shows that you are prepared at least to debate. What I’ve said about moderators and owners deleting posts is quite true as you well know. I’ve even seen moderators altering their own posts just so that they are seen in a better light. You know this sort of thing goes on. However, I have also said you are helpful. If you would just tone down your criticism of others when they don’t agree with you, then you would be a better moderator. Is there any chance of that? Time will tell.

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5 months 3 weeks ago
John
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Bk-7m Load Performace List via Midi? #117
Do you guys think we can take this down a notch?

I want to enjoy my program and my arranger, and I want to ask the community for some help when I need it and for some positive input. The forum moderators aren't supposed to be the ones starting a shitting contest. What is the point of driving your users away? This isn't Nazi Germany. We all get to think differently, and use our instruments how we see fit.

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